Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!

hmmm have to test... i say you mortgage the house for this beast.... get 3 biomancy powers putting all your cards into getting that thing a toughness 7-9 creature.... at that point I guarantee you will not be complaining about the points when its flying around killing thing and your opponent is on the verge of shitting themselves.

Just looking at the 5 missions, and that capture the flag... is there one like last year or three that you can run with now. I remember that one and it was crazy... first guy to get it has a great chance to win right there.... man bring jump infrantry or jet bikes..... or like i was saying earlier with the armor, park two rhinos infront of the relic, or whatever it is, and back up with the troops and use another to block while your opponent has to climb over those rhinos to get to you.
Might have to change my list up a little to beef up my third troop choice.
This is going to be 100% what the missions will be for gottocon 2013? Man thats pretty good intel if correct.

Yep those are, as of the day of posting anyway, the missions. The capture the flag looks to almost be 100% like the capture the flag from last year, so yeah, bring things with high movement. I took 3 flying monsters last year, and got all 3 objectives and just jumped away all game. :p

Yeah i won the relic as well. My ooponent drop podded near it captured it. But his 6' move was eventually caught by my 12' movement wraiths. If i had no fast units i would have stood no chance.

HQ
Warp Smith 124 Aura of Dark

Elites
Dreadnought
135 Missle launcher, Lasscannon
Dreadnuaght
115 Plasma Cannon
Dreadnuaght
115 Plasma Cannon

Troops
Cultists x20 X2 heavy stubbers
110
Chaos marines x14 Power weapon, VOTLW, Lasscannon, Plasma rifle
256
Chaos marines x14 Power weapon, VOTLW, Lasscannon, Plasma rifle
256
Chaos marines x10 VOTLW, Lasscannon, Plasma rifle
185

Heavy
Defiler Extra PF
195
Oblitirators x2 MON
152
Predator
107 Heavy bolters, Havoc launcher


1751 total

This list worked great, I will be giving it a few more tries I think.

So, I was thinking of how to use Heldrakes for the Baleflamer, instead of anti-flyer/mech, heres what I came up with.

Essentially, the Nurgle Troops will be my forward moving types, since they can just DS in.
Apostle + CSM in LR - A tough tank potentially, its going to just take over the middle.
20 Cultists in the back hopefully, maybe even in reserve mission depending.

Havocs, Pred, and Helbrute (Melta) all need to do some solid work, the Havocs + Quad gun will prop a Rhino/Chimera a turn, or should, while the Lascannon Pred + LR can hopefully knock some of the tougher flyers down.

The main focus of the list however is the double baleflame templates washing over anything on the ground, they wont leave much alive, while the screamers can also pop most things, even LR's with some luck.

Dark Apostle - 105
Gift of Mutation - 10
- 115

Helbrute - 100
- 100

9 CSM - 127
Melta-Bomb - 5
Plasma Gun - 15
- 147

10 Cultists - 50
Flamer - 5
- 55

10 Cultists - 50
Shotgun
8 Autguns
Heavy Stubber - 5
- 65

Heldrake - 170
- 170

Heldrake - 170
- 170

7 Havocs - 98
4 AC's - 40
- 138

Predator - 75
Lascannons - 40
TL Lascannon - 25
- 140

Land Raider - 230
- 230

1330
**********
Herald of Nurgle - 50

6 ( x 15) Plague Bearers - 90
7 ( x 15) Plague Bearers - 105

3 ( x 25) Screamers - 75

320
**********
Aegis - 50
Quad Gun - 50
- 100

Urgh, thats so much flamey death lol.
I like that list, seems both fluffy and crunchy, and flamey.

Looks tough. gotta try it, but like we've agreed before, this book will let you write any list you want and will therefore come up with lots of viable builds.

I've been thinking about the 20+ Cultist blob and how to best Force Multiply them. They need a Tank IC, and something extra to boost their effectiveness.

My first thought was 3 Flamers + Dark Apostle (Hatred, Fearless) with Burning Brand. I still like the wall of death combo, but the Apostle can't stand Combat.

so, Tank, I say to myself. ok, keep 3 Flamers, switch to Nurgle Lord Termi with some kit. loose Hatred, gain a 2+4++ until two saves are failed...

Ok, not bad but too simple.

now, Force Multiplying. Sorcerer of Nurgle (and Biomancy) could dish out some Boost..... and if he was on a Palanquin, he's T5 W4..... but only 3+4++

and through all this the squad means opponents use T3..... so Mark of Nurgle?? for the Cultists?? (hoping they also get Endurance/Invisibility) to mitigate wounds?

I dunno, I've seen 2+3++ Tank extremely well for Necron Warriors....

then my mind turns to a model I rarely use, since it doesn't fit the other squads, and hasn't been a really viable build for a while......

Khorne Termi Lord with 2x Lightning Claw, Sigil, Brand + 35 Khorneate Cultists (don't mess with that many attacks)



I've also considered a new tactic for preventing First Blood, while using transports. If say 2 squads are at 12-15 strong, and hold tight till the Heavies have secured FB, you could keep a couple empty rhinos in Reserve, and have them pick up the squads on the way. Might end up too risky and clumsy, but with 2-3 hidden off the table, they could also fill a couple roles, equiped right.

I don't have the time now to post all the lists i've written. I'll need to play a few test runs with new crazy lists to see if any of it is really viable.

ok, quickly, and so briefly:

List 1 (general goodness), 11KP, 5Troop, 0HS: Lord with blob take centre, flying monsters and Marines advance, small cultist jump in havoc rhino, plaguebearers take outlying objectives.

172 Lord; Khorne, Termi, Pair Claws, BBrand, VoLW
265 Daemon Prince; Nurgle, Armour, Wings, BMace

255 Cultists x35; Flamer x3, Khorne
213 CSM x10; Melta x2, C.Melta + L.Claw, CCW x9, VoLW
50 Rhino; Dozer, C.Plasma
50 Cultists x10

228 Plague Marines x7; Plasmagun, Meltagun, C.Plasma + P.Maul
52 Rhino; Dozer, Havoc
*******
255 Lord of Change; Instrument (win tied combat)
105 Plaguebearers x7
105 Plaguebearers x7



List 2 (bring the conversion), 12KP, 4Troop, 4HS; huge firebase throwing lots of AP3 and S8 shots arround, lord with termies in LR, drop off turn 2, and backup.

155 Lord; Nurgle, Termi, C.Melta, L.Claw, Gift

182 CSM x10; Melta x2, C.Melta + P.Weap
35 Rhino
197 CSM x10; Plasma x2, P.Pistol + P.Weap
35 Rhino
50 Cultists x10
50 Cultists x10

183 CTermies x4; C.Melta x2, C.Flame, L.Claw, P.Fist, Nurgle, Icon of Fear
235 CLand Raider; C.Bolter

175 Forgefiend
220 Defiler; Scourge, +Fist
220 Defiler; Scourge


List 3 (troop heavy), 13KP, 6Troop, 2HS: two termi lords tank for thier respective footslogging marines, HBolt squad buble wraps FFeind, Cultists and maybe rhinos in reserve

154 Lord; Nurgle, Termi, C.Melta, L.Claw, Gift
154 Lord; Slaanesh, Termi, C.Melta, L.Claw, Gift

175 Plague Marines x5; Plasmagun x2, C.Plasma + P.Maul
184 Noise Marines x7; Sonic Blaster x6, CCW x4, Doom Siren + P.Maul
223 Plague Marines x7; Plasmagun, Meltagun, P.Pistol + P.Sword
47 Rhino; Havoc
215 CSM x10; Melta x2, C.Melta + P.Weap, VoLW, CCW x10
35 Rhino
170 CSM x10; Flamer, H.Bolter, P.Weap
35 Rhino
50 Cultists x10

135 Maulerfiend; Tentacles
175 Forgefiend


list 4 (It Will Not Die), 9KP, 2Troop, 3HS: i could exchange a prince for a baledrake, but this redundancy and resilience will sit back and shoot for 2 turns, princes going for Endurance, Invisibility

295 DPrince; Nurgle, Armour, Wings, MLevel 3
295 DPrince; Tzeench, Armour, Wings, MLevel 3

248 CSM x10; Meltagun, Lascannon, CCW x9, Icon of Fearless, C.Melta+L.Claw+Gift
47 Rhino; Havoc
238 CSM x10; Meltagun, Lascannon, CCW x9, Icon of Fearless, L.Claw+Gift
45 Rhino; C.Plasma

135 Maulerfiend; Tentacles
220 Defiler; Scourge, +Fist
220 Defiler; Scourge, (reaper still)

#######################################################

so there you have the basics. I also have a double termi blob list since 2+ could be really nice, but I did that last Gottacon...

All of those lists are full of win lol.
List 1: I think your DPs and LoC will have to do all the heavy lifting, can three MCs do enough damage? The PMs and PBs means you're survivable, but for how long?
List 2: Feels like a list I would like, lots of HS, huge amounts of firepower, but like I always struggle with, not a ton of bodies (yes, 40 troops, but 20 are cultists so those barely count ). Be fun to play though.
List 3: Lots of tough bodies to deal with, decent firepower and a balanced list it seems
List 4: 27 models. That's not a lot. But holy crap can those two DP cause some damage. Would not wanna face those...period lol

Have you thought at all of a list using Typhus and zombies?

I generally will refuse to use Typheaz.... it's just one of the 'Easy' buttons for the army: Typhus, 200 zombies and Helldrakes....

See, I did not know that was a "thing".
I was assuming Typhus, a unit of termies with MoN, some Plague marines, maybe an obliterator or three with the MoN and some zombies for flavour, recreate the "Plague of Unbelief" from the 13th Black Crusade
Gotta remember, I don't do online list reading or competitive building, or god forbid unit spam, so did not know of the stigma on him

I dont think Typhus is broken, especially at 1750? Same with Heldrakes. Potent, and probably top teir within the book, but internally balanced.

I like lists 1 and 3 the most I think.

yeah, I like the look of List 3 as well.

STEVE
That list has almost no punch. Sure, lots of boots on the table, but you what real threats do you have in 1750?

-2x Heldrake
-7x Havocs
-1x Predator
-2x LR
-3x Screamers
-1x Quadgun

That's a helluva lot of faith in not many units. Too many common tournament armies (the new daemon hotness, Paladin spam, 'cron air, etc.) would wreck this list. I just don't feel it has enough "Killing Power."

TIM: LIST 1
Like Steve's list, there is so little killing in this list. The only mobility you have is the cultists and everything else can get shot off the table before ever reaching assault. It's survivable to a degree, but it's just seeing much damage output: plaguebearers and plague marines are built to survive, not kill, leaving you with a foot lord, a greater daemon and a daemon prince to...kill everything?

TIM: LIST 2
This list can hold objectives, pop vehichles, bring heavy assault pain and blow hordes off the table. This list could wreck shit without having to over-expose itself.

TIM: LIST 3
Like a mix between Lists 1 and 2, it has more killing power than List 1 and more survivability than List 2, but shares the weakness of both lists as well.

TIM: LIST 4
This list will do a lot of damage early in the game, then good players will crush your two troops choics and weather your 5 killing units.

TIM: OVERALL
I like the themes you have going on, but I think the only really viable tournament list is List 2.


I hope I'm not being too overly critical but that IS what we're here for, right?

I admit there is a lot of pressure on the Heldrakes, but dont underestimate that S6 AP3 (reroll wounds if you want) TORRENT template on a skimmer if needed.

It wipes out full units or renders them useless 1 per turn.

Yeah, the baleflamer hurts what it hits, for sure, but let's see what you're relying on:

1. Getting both in on Turn 2.
2. Good positioning.
3. Not getting shot out of the sky. Either one getting destroyed or losing its gun and you're army is almost instantly half as effective.
4. No hordes (which, with allies, seem to be the norm). I just don't see a single Heldrake making a horde ineffective in one turn. Maybe both of them together, but most lists I see have at least 2 (usually Guard, who can be made fearless pretty easily, Cultists who can be made fearless or Ors who...well, you get the picture).
5. Nothing with 2+ which is becoming more common this edition, it seems.
6. Nothing in transports OR popping transports before your Heldrakes come on.
7. The rest of your army surviving while the Heldrakes do their thing.
8. The enemy not having better or more flyers.

It just feels too gimmicky/one-trick pony to me and I think experienced players won't have a lot of problems with it.

It does depend on the heldrakes, without a doubt.

The issue is, is there enough anti-mech? Its what I was worried about to start with.

Las Pred should be 2 HP per round, and will be behind the ADL
LR should be 2 HP per round on transport AV.
Havocs should be 1 or 2, with the Quad Gun going up to 2 or 3 per round.
Heldrakes 'swoop' should be 1 or 2 each on the first round (expectation is to hover on 2,3,4,5)
Brute, should be 1 HP unless it actually reaches CC against a vehicle, then that vehicle will die.
Screamers, 1 or 2 HP on turn 2.

Thats the thinking anyway.

At that point you MUST focus on stopping those vehicles, and they have enough staying power to last a few turns. It really depends on if people start rocking lascannons...

The hope is the focus is on the vehicles, who are strong enough to stay alive, while knocking down the things that can hurt those vehicles, and having enough annoying troops to hold out.

Now, bearing in my mind, I am commenting on the list with no accounting for generalship or who is running the list, I think it's a risky list. I mean, playtest it and it may blow the opponents out of the water but as it stands, on paper, I don't feel strongly about it carrying a tournament.

Also, that new daemon list, while no means unbeatable, would "rock-scissor" this list pretty bad, I think. Don't build for a list, obviously, but sadly, I think that list will be around for a while.

Yeah, Flamers and Screamers are some harsh harsh things.

I am thinking right now, maybe find a way to tweak this, and get that CSM/DA, into Berzerker/Lord. That can be the anti-horde, and if needed, (with a Dirge Caster) wipe out a Flamer blob without getting killed in the face...

I dont build for lists, or expect my stunning intellect to carry me, I do generally aim to go for tight lists first, so we will see, I think this one is strong, its just not as obvious since the Heldrake is really not that flashy, but is quite solid. (And as a Flyer would be immune to Flamers and Screamers... :p)

srg and panda, I'd like to hear your points for and against lists 1 and 2.


as a note for list 1, the origial thought, as my previous post relates, was to have a Nurgle lord to add the PMarines to the scoring side, alternately they could also be swaped for say, Raptors...

i do worry about the lack of ANTI flyer/defence line in list 2, as well as Lance spam.

list 3 looks ok on paper, but i think the final will see the Maulerfiend and a Rhino being swapped with a Baledrake (relying on a single reserve or a chaff distraction?). it's tactically tougher when the Troops have to do the heavy lifting... also might use some points to help the lords a bit (brand, blind grenades, meltabombs?)

Critique is welcome!



here's a Troll list for you

Typhus

Termies x3, little kit
CLR dedicated

min cult
min cult
min cult
min cult
min cult

Baledrake

CLR
CLR
CLR

Defence Line + Quad gun

three cult squads in LR, one behind line using Quad, one in reserve. ha

List one.

172 Lord; Khorne, Termi, Pair Claws, BBrand, VoLW
- Is this Lord Legal? can you take the Extra Weapon (Brand) with Double Claw? Otherwise yeah, its a killer.

265 Daemon Prince; Nurgle, Armour, Wings, BMace
- I'm just not sold on this. T5, no EW, 265 points that can be instakilled, and comes on Turn 2 if Flying.

255 Cultists x35; Flamer x3, Khorne
- Once fearless, yep I like these guys, pretty expensive though tbh, would an Ork blob be mutually assured destruction at 195 points?

213 CSM x10; Melta x2, C.Melta + L.Claw, CCW x9, VoLW
50 Rhino; Dozer, C.Plasma
- Very Solid

50 Cultists x10

228 Plague Marines x7; Plasmagun, Meltagun, C.Plasma + P.Maul
52 Rhino; Dozer, Havoc
- Solid

*******
255 Lord of Change; Instrument (win tied combat)
105 Plaguebearers x7
105 Plaguebearers x7
- Solid

Pros
Good troops across the board, it will be a slugfest for you every game as your going to need those CSM/PM's to do a lot of work in the middle.

Cons
Negligible ranged support.
Lots of points in a few models (DP, LoC)
Cultist blob at risk of being wiped out by a hard counter (Berzerkers for example, like mentioned a counter blob of IG/Orks)

Suggestion
Drop the Prince and get some ranged support, it wont do anything until Turn 3!

List 2

155 Lord; Nurgle, Termi, C.Melta, L.Claw, Gift

182 CSM x10; Melta x2, C.Melta + P.Weap
35 Rhino

197 CSM x10; Plasma x2, P.Pistol + P.Weap
35 Rhino
50 Cultists x10
50 Cultists x10

183 CTermies x4; C.Melta x2, C.Flame, L.Claw, P.Fist, Nurgle, Icon of Fear
- Would drop the Icon

235 CLand Raider; C.Bolter

175 Forgefiend
220 Defiler; Scourge, +Fist
220 Defiler; Scourge

Pros
Better down range support for sure.
2 Solid troops (missing VotLW though so only 'above average' leadership)
Good pressure if you move up the Defilers
Good templates

Cons
Still light ranged
No Anti-Air

Suggestions
None really, I think Termi + LR ties your hands here, and if I were you I would go Slanneshi, for FNP before Nurgle.

Night Lord wrote:

172 Lord; Khorne, Termi, Pair Claws, BBrand, VoLW

srg is right, this is not a legal option.
Terminator option replaces all wargear with the armour, combi-bolter and power weapon
One claw replaces the power weapon
One claw replaces the combit bolter
You have nothing left to replace with the Brand (as it replaces a single weapon the model has)
Sorry

Oops, I may have just assumed, or read the restrictions (none) for the Chaos Rewards.... anyway thats too bad, once again that model retains minimal use through this edition.


so, likely a Sorcerer leading the blob then to give them multiple multipliers... I'll post a revised list

Does the Sorc make them Fearless?